chancellor_dave (![[info]](http://l-stat.livejournal.com/img/userinfo.gif){kind=small} chancellor_dave) wrote,@ 2008-08-30 08:16:00 |
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| Current mood: |  annoyed |
How Not To eBay?
Sometimes you have to deal with people on eBay who defy every attempt to talk reason into them. Here's an example...
I was selling a Revere Ware Limited Edition 1976 casserole pan and 8.5" skillet in their own listings, along with a few other pieces that are unimportant to this story. Things started out good with them. I felt after I finished that the descriptions were well-written and it would be difficult to make any mistakes about what they were and what condition they were in.
So, the day after I listed them, I get this odd random message through the eBay message system. It read:
"No questions. Thank you."
I thought this was pretty odd, but I just didn't really think about it too much at the time. It seemed like someone was just trying to share a poorly-concocted joke with me? For future reference, note that the message was sent through the eBay message system.
As the listings ended, I realized I didn't quite get what I wanted for them. I only got $18.27 for the casserole and $19.51 for the skillet. They sold for less than half what they would under a good economy. But I did agree to sell, so I went with it. I didn't even realize at the time, but they sold to that guy who sent the previous message.
I got a request for a total from him 14 minutes after the last auction ended. His included message in his request for a total read:
"Hello, could you give me an idea how much the combined shipping is for these two pans? could you check how much it would cost to use Fedex I think they have a better price for heavy packages. Thank you, Glen"
I didn't notice his special request at the time, but it wouldn't have mattered. This was not a "heavy package" and Fedex would not have been cheaper. I just sent him a total using the eBay calculator, for a quote based on Parcel Post. His total was $58.01, $20.23 of which was shipping and handling.
I didn't say how much handling was in the description or total email, because it was $4.00 per pan. You might think this is greedy and I think most customers would. But I set it to $4.00 each because in the past when I've sold these things I've ended up losing money on the handling and sometimes on the shipping alone. I pack these pans well and I feel I deserve to at least break even on it. Aside from that, individual shipping is listed in each auction if the buyer enters their zip code into eBay, so it's not like the approximate S&H I charge should be any big mystery to anyone who even cares.
He responds to my total with this message, which was NOT sent through the eBay message system:
"Hello, one of the problems with being retired is that you have a lot of time on your hands. I noticed that the post office has a large flat priority mail box (free of charge) that you can put as much as you like into regardless of weight for less then $10.00. Since you had planed to go to the post office anyway, could you please ship the pans this way? I would really appreciate it. Thank you, Glen"
I want to stress right now that this request of his is extremely dumb, if you know the size of these things. And that's listed right in the auction description. Sure, it might be possible to jam them in there, but it would be an incredibly stupid thing to do. However, I assumed for the moment that he just didn't realize they were too big for that.
I responded (Sadly, not through eBay. He got me doing it too for a while.):
"Well, I've rechecked the size of the large Flat Rate Box. The USPS says it's 12” x 12” x 5-1/2”. I can tell you that I don't think your two pans would fit in one with adequate packing material. The casserole pan is actually 14.5" with the handles. That might barely fit with no packing at all next to the wall of the box, but that just wouldn't be safe enough. I'd be risking that the rivets on it would get busted or it would get dented if it gets dropped or jammed between two heavier boxes."
He counters with:
"Hello Dave, There are two flat rate box sizes. The other one is longer and thinner. Please let me check at the post office tomorrow for the exact size and get back to you. Thank you for your patience. Best, Glen"
Alright, so he's probably driving to the post office just so he can decide if it's worth it to ask me to make an extra trip to the post office so he can try to save a few dollars on shipping? He's already trying to make us waste his entire savings on gasoline. But, I kindly responded:
"Well, I was going by this:
http://shop.usps.com/webapp/wcs/stores/s
If you can do better, let me know. Keep in mind, you still need enough width and height for the pans and packing material.
I wanted to note though, I have handling included in the current shipping quote and there will still be handling if I'm using a flat rate box. I might discount it a little if I don't have to provide the box, but it'll still be there. So it's not going to save you like $10 to switch boxes. Thought you might want to know before you run in to the P.O. just for this."
I hoped the general message of "this is a bad idea and probably isn't saving you anything" might sink in, but no joy this time. He went to the post office the next day and responded happily with this:
"Hello Dave,
Please note the part that says "I explained to the postmaster." This guy's postmaster should be earning hazard pay, I guarantee you. I'm sure some of his last words to Glen were something along the lines of, "Yes, I'll tell you they'll fit if you just leave me alone and let me get back to more important things!"
Just to try to appease him and get him to let me get to other things, I responded with this to make him happy:
"I'll check on that when I'm in there to mail some of the others, which may end up being tomorrow. I suspect they still might not both fit in there with adequate packing though."
I was already pretty distressed at this point though. I knew shipping them this way was a bad idea. He still had me responding just by hitting reply, but I knew this next one needed to be sent through eBay, so the next day I countered with:
"I got that specific flat rate box today while doing the other mailing. The pans will squeeze in it, but there isn't much extra space, for things like packing material. I don't feel great about mailing them this way, but I'll do it if it's what you want.
As I believe I stated before, there will still be a handling fee attached to the order total. I will make it less since the box is free. You'll also be taking responsibility for the safety of the pans in shipping, meaning I won't be responsible if they are damaged. Does that all sound agreeable to you? If so, I'll send you a new total."
I knew this was a bad idea, but I also knew this guy wasn't going to have it any other way at this point. I could have told him they just wouldn't fit, but I also knew he'd probably bring a box home from his local U.S.P.O. just to check after he got them. So I didn't really have a choice. He responded, again, not through the eBay system:
"Hello Dave,
So I sent him a new invoice, which put his S&H at $14.80. I was going through too much trouble for $5 handling at this point, but I just wanted him out of my hair. He paid the next day and I packed both pans individually in some bubble envelopes before placing them in the box so they wouldn't damage each other and they had minimal packing. Considering that the box was too small, they were pretty well packed. The only real weakness would have been if something heavy had been placed on top of them in transit. That might have popped the rivets on the skillet or bent the sides of either pan. But hey, it's what he asked for and he took responsibility.
Six days later, I guess my tolerance finally caught up with me. I get an email from him that says:
"Hello David, I recieved the pans and I find them not as described in your auction. The eight and one half inch pan's bottom seems to have been polished with a substance that has left several fingerprints of a different color then the copper along the tapered part. the handle lacks the smoothness found on the other pans handles. Instead the top portion is pitted throughout. the Larger pan's bottom is discolored in three locations (not polish, but ware). This is not what I expected from your descriptions. Respectfully request a refund of the purchase price plus one way shipping and handling. Thank you, Glen"
I can tell immediately that this whole message is bullshit. I suppose if I ran some big warehouse where I moved hundreds of items everyday, I might not have known my items that well. But I knew these pans because I'd handled them quite a lot. He was just plain wrong about his complaints. Since this was looking bad, I requested:
"Before I reply, would you please restate your complaint through the eBay message system, since we appear to be in disagreement about this and we may need eBay to step in and sort this out at some point?"
Maybe a little annoying to him? But I know eBay can't do a whole lot with forwarded emails and this looked to me like it was headed that way. It still may be. He responded (Yes, through the message system. He DOES know how to use it.):
"This message concerns the above item and item #320280436706. It is being resent through the ebay message system at the sellers request.
Hello David, I received the pans and find them not as described in your auction. The eight and one half inch pan's bottom seems to have been polished with a substance that has left several fingerprints of a different color then the copper along the tapered part. The handle lacks the smoothness found on the other pans handles. Instead the top portion is pitted throughout. The larger pan's bottom is discolored in three locations (not polish, but wear). This is not what I expected from your descriptions. Respectfully request a refund of the purchase prices plus one way shipping and handling. Thank you, Glen"
I needed the money for those things or I wouldn't have been selling them with the economy the way it is in the first place. I would have given a shipping refund both ways if I'd misrepresneted something, but those listings were spot on and I knew it. So I answered him with:
"Thank you for resubmitting your message. I'll try to address all your points as best I can.
"The eight and one half inch pan's bottom seems to have been polished with a substance that has left several fingerprints of a different color then the copper along the tapered part."
The fingerprints are there because the pan was touched after polishing. Clean copper will show fingerprints if it is touched and they'll discolor over time as well, as they have on that pan. It's just a fact about copper. I believe the fingerprints you're referring to even show in one of the pictures. They can be removed easily with a copper polish, such as Brasso.
"The handle lacks the smoothness found on the other pans handles. Instead the top portion is pitted throughout."
I'm not aware of any unusual amount of pitting on the handle. While it seemed like it had been handled often over its 32 years, I didn't see anything like corrosion pitting. I have several other pans in my collection with the same handles; they do show pit-like marks in some places on the brass handles. But the unused ones have similar marks. It appears to me to be something from the manufacturing process, not a sign of neglect. If you send a picture, I'll see if it's some mark from neglect that I missed.
"The larger pan's bottom is discolored in three locations (not polish, but wear)."
From the high-res picture I have, I can't find the discoloration spots you're talking about. Could you be more specific about the marks? I don't remember this pan having anything unusually bad except a little warping on the bottom and scratching.
I may refund the price of the pans themselves once I receive them back from you. I don't feel I misrepresented them though and will not refund shipping without additional proof of points 2 and 3. Pictures may help. Thanks."
The next day, he came back in full force with this, again sent without going through the eBay message system:
"Hello David,
I'll leave it to the reader at this point to either figure out what the problems are with this email or read it later on in this post. I responded to him with this, which had to be broken into parts because of the 1000 character limit on eBay:
"Glen,
Before I discuss how a refund might go, I'd like to share a little more about my reasoning for my point of view in our disagreement. So this will be a little long and I'll have to break it up.
First off, I can't know what my customer will want when I set up these Revere Ware auctions. The reason is because some people prefer not to polish them. They like to let them return to a more natural state. In fact, many collectors of fine copper (including collectors of these pans) consider the used ones to be worth most with a natural patina. I used to polish them when I resold them, before I realized it was a mistake because it can hurt their value in some eyes. Some people just don't want them them polished.
(Response to be continued in another message.)"
"Granted, it's just a few fingerprints instead of a full patina, but it's a step in that direction. Still, if you'd asked before I shipped them that the fingerprints that were in the pictures be polished off, I would have done it without an argument. But I just don't have the ability to do anything about it now, since you have it now. And you could still make it how you want it pretty easily on your own. I have to take that into consideration.
Just so I'm sure you're satisfied on that second point, here's a link to a picture of the handle of one of my pans:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/E
As you can see, it's not perfectly smooth. And that handle in the picture has been used a total of 3 times in its 32 years. I purchased it a year ago with the original factory coating intact. (And I'll tell you, the rest of this pan was pristine.) I removed the coating so I could use it for cooking.
(Response to be continued in another message.)"
"And just so I'm clear enough about it, that casserole pan was in my set for a year before I decided just recently to part with it. I'm quite familiar with its condition as it was before I shipped it. I'm pretty sure there was no point on the bottom where the copper has worn through. In fact, there should be plenty of copper left to last decades, if not a hundred years or more, with proper care. I also know that if it were worn through, what you'd be seeing would be stainless steel and I see nothing like that in my picture. It's more likely what you're seeing is just tarnish and that can be polished off. On top of that, there is a disclaimer in that auction, stating among other things, that I "I will not guarantee the shine when you get it..." So if it's just tarnish on that one too, I can't consider that a basis for a shipping refund.
(Response to be continued in another message.)"
"To sum up, if it's just a matter of tarnish on both pans, I won't give you a shipping refund for that. Additionally, I'll need them back in the condition they left my care if I'm going to give you a refund for the pans themselves. And I can't be responsible for shipping damage, which would include things like popped rivets (usually loose handles are the first symptom). If I get them back as I sent them (and no, I don't care if they're a bit more tarnished), I'll refund you for the pans. If I find additional damage that I feel was not covered in my description, I'll also refund you shipping BOTH ways, because that's my policy. But, if I find that it's just tarnish on them, all you'll get is a refund for the pans and no more. I'll even try to show you that the casserole's copper isn't worn through with pictures if you want.
Deal?"
To any intelligent person, this would have been a sign to give up. But Glen pushed on into the wild unknown:
"Hello David,
I would like to point out something that I didn't point out in any of my emails to this guy simply for attempting to be polite. It's that he's ex-military and he doesn't seem to remember anything about metal polish or tarnish at all except that he didn't like Brasso. That has to say something about the intelligence level of our military if they'd keep someone in who would probably forget week after week which end the bullets come from. But I guess it's not so dangerous if he can't remember how to load the gun in the first place?
The same night, I responded with:
"Well, I collect these pans, because I think they're great cookware. Generally when I sell them, it's either because I bought a set to get one specific piece or I just need money. It's the latter this time; I liked those pans. And this is also why I know a lot about them.
And it may be that the layer of oxidation isn't even in thickness, meaning it might take a bit longer to polish it to the point where it's evenly shiny. I'll have a look at it when I get it and I'll be able to tell.
I can't really tell you how long it'll take, but I'll probably target my efforts on one area for the picture, just so you can hopefully still tell it's the same pan by how the rest still looks."
I am still trying to be nice to the guy, but it's not easy at this point. I really do not belong in sales, because I can't deal with people like this the way they should be deal with, which means calling the store security guards if it's in a store.
A few days later, I got the box in the mail. I didn't have time to spend 4 hours on a response at the time, so I just sent him this for the time:
"I did get the pans back in the mail, but haven't had time yet to take care processing your return. I've had a deadline to work on. I will get to it as soon as I can.
What needed to be done to them when you got them wouldn't have taken that long, but when I get to it I'll spend some time taking pictures and writing an explanation. That part will take a bit longer."
I already knew the pans were damaged at this point. He EXTREMELY stupidly didn't put anything between them and the skillet had gotten scraped and gouged up really terribly in the mail, so I couldn't afford him a full refund. Aside from that, there wasn't anything more wrong with the pans than minor spots of tarnish, so he wasn't getting his shipping back either. When I had the time, I sent him this, in seven parts since it was huge:
"(Part 1 of 7)
I am processing your return as per your request and our agreement. I'm sending you this group of messages to inform you of the reasoning behind the return value and to provide you with evidence to support that reasoning.
Let's go over the "Casserole Pan" first. Here is a larger version of the picture from the auction that best shows the copper bottom in its state as it left my care originally:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/E
This original picture appears to lack 3 areas of tarnish that it had when I got it back from you. One of these areas had some lighter metal around it than the rest of the pan, so I naturally concluded that this was what you were labeling as a "wear spot" and trying to polish away yourself."
"(Part 2 of 7)
Here are some pictures showing the state of these spots when I got the pan and their subsequent removal:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/E
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/E
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/E
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/E
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/E
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/E
As you can see, the spots were not wear, but were instead just tarnish, as they were removed easily with Brasso. The total time involved to remove all of the spots, including taking pictures along the way, was under 2 minutes, as checked against my watch."
"(Part 3 of 7)
Since I can only conclude that these spots came to the pan between when I shipped it and when I got it back and my auction specifically states, "I will not guarantee the shine when you get it, but it should stay looking pretty good if you don't damage the wax job," I have to conclude that these spots are no basis for a refund of shipping either way. The spots would not be basis for a refund of the purchase price either by the auction description. But I agreed to that later, so I will refund your $18.27 in exchange for the casserole pan.
Now for the "8.5" Skillet." Here is a larger version of the picture from the auction that best shows the copper bottom in the state it originally left my care:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/E
It is a larger version of the original auction picture, but both pictures do establish that the bottom of the pan had the same fingerprints. This fact was not hidden by me."
"(Part 4 of 7)
This is what the skillet looked like when I got it back from you:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/E
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/E
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/E
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/E
In addition to the fingerprints, it also has 3 large areas where there are VERY deep marks from shipping damage. I can easily see that the skillet was damaged because it was placed directly inside the casserole pan for shipping and they were not separated with something, causing the copper to be scraped by the stainless steel edges of the casserole pan every time the box was moved in shipment. Using one of the two bubble wrap bags I included in shipment to wrap either of the pans by itself would have prevented this."
"(Part 5 of 7)
As for the fingerprints, here is what the skillet looked like after it spent a brief time under a polishing rag:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/E
The total time spent polishing the skillet, from start to finish, was 3 minutes, 50 seconds.
Afterward, the shipping damage marks are still very evident:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/E
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/E
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/E
While it was not specifically stated in words in this auction that the pan was fingerprinted, I must conclude that this is also no basis for a shipping refund. My reasons include these facts:"
"(Part 6 of 7)
1. The statements about surface finish in my casserole pan auction were a courtesy. The purpose of the statements in the casserole pan auction was to clarify that the measure of protection to the finish will not necessarily keep it shiny; it stands to reason that an unprotected pan such as the 8.5" skillet is even more prone to tarnish. Neither auction included a guarantee about the polish of the pan.
2. Furthermore, it is not at all normal for sellers of this type of cookware to state disclaimers about fingerprints when their product is in used condition. I can't remember ever seeing it in anyone else's auctions, even though I've looked at hundreds, from many sellers.
3. The entire copper bottom of the skillet took less than 4 minutes to polish, so this is nothing more than a matter of convenience.
4. Polishing is normal maintenance for these pans if you don't want tarnish. This is true of anything with bare copper."
"(Part 7 of 7)
5. Once again, the fingerprints were in the pictures. So the item was not in a condition that's different from what was presented to you in the auction.
6. Since fingerprints are part of its patina, they do not decrease the appraisal value of the skillet, assuming the appraiser is properly qualified, .
7. As I stated, I would have gladly polished the pan if you had kindly requested so before I originally shipped it.
Since this skillet is still significantly damaged due to a poor packing job, I will only be able to refund you $10 for it. This is not negotiable, as I am still taking a loss on this transaction.
This brings your total refund to $28.27, which I will send you once I've finished sending this message through eBay's message system in sections. I am not responsible if eBay or paypal keeps any part of your refund. When I've sent the refund, I will consider our transaction finished.
Have a good day and best of luck to you."
At this point, I knew I couldn't make him understand anything. I was writing the whole thing just for the benefit of the eBay staff if they had to sort through this whole mess.
